Act 2 discussions - all classes

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1A:

Act Two Discussion Board

We have read 2.1 and 2.2 in class; the rest of Act Two is up to you! Over the long weekend you are expected to spend class time + homework time. We will watch the rest of Act 2 on your return, and have an in-class quiz on it - but our discussion happens here. Homework is 2.1 and 2.2 in the booklet. Class time is the rest of Act Two.

The theme of the discussion is 'What is Love?' Please post any ideas sparked off by the quotes from 2.6 below. What does each character think about love? Do the young and old characters have different ideas of love? How is Shakepeare developing this theme in the play?
You must post one comment + one question, or two comments. If you like, the comments and questions can be about any part of act two as you work to read and understand it. I will check in on Friday, Monday and Tuesday to respond to your posts. Please put your name by your post so I can be sure you have completed the assignment.

Friar: “So smile the heavens upon this holy act” (2.6.1)
“The sweetest honey/ Is loathsome in his own deliciousness/ And in the taste confounds the appetite./ Therefore love moderately, long love doth so” (2.6.11 – 14)

- The Friar is basically warning Romeo to be calm and do everything slowly. As Romeo is in love with Juliet right now, the love between them could be harmful for them later on if they want everything too quickly. So if you look at the last quote, the Friar is saying that they should love moderately to let their love last forever. This shows that how Friar really wants Romeo and Juliet to live a happy life together. Friar is showing his wisdom as an old person with more experiences with love.[Cindy]

David:
Here, the Friar expresses his weary opinion on love. He says that love is “the sweetest honey,” but can be negative, even sickening in abusive quantities. He advises the lovers of Romeo and Juliet that only if they “love moderately” can they “long love” (stay in a relationship).

Jordan:
In these lines, the Friar is expressing his concerns for Romeo and Juliet's love. This metaphor is likening their love to honey and he's saying that if they love too passionately, they might get sick of each other. As with honey, if you eat too much of it at a time, you might feel ill and it may have an effect on your craving for it in the future. Therefore, he says that if they want their love to last longer, they should love moderately.

Jordan [question]:
Is the Friar merely giving the lovers some advice or is he also voicing his opinion that they're moving too fast and will get sick of each other unless they slow down. Also, is it just a coincidence that he only says these words of wisdom to Romeo or is it because the Friar thinks that Juliet is responsible enough to handle herself and Romeo may not be?
He is definitely advising them to slow down - ironic since he's marrying them so quickly! His words do not match his actions.Ms K.
Kenneth
Friar Lawrence, seemingly shaken by Romeo's fickleness, encourages moderation, as stated by this quote. He claims that even the sweetest of all honeys is repulsive in its potent taste, contrasting with the extreme appetite for it. Through this warning, he reminds Romeo and Juliet not to have such a strong "appetite for love", as the "taste of the "honey" that results will deter them, as it is too much. Instead, he asserts that moderation is the foundation of an enduring love, so that their "appetite is whetted", rather than fulfilled outright.

Erika
I found it strange that the Friar was telling Romeo to 'love moderately,' because that is completely different from young love. The impression of young love that most people have is that it is impulsive, exciting, and a bit reckless, but that is how it is portrayed and that is how adolescents are brought up to think. I personally think the Friar gave bad advice, because being in love should be fun and it shouldn't have to be restricted or limited.

Stephane @ Erika's response: I agree with Erika's comment about Friar telling Romeo to "love moderately." Although the advice does sound reasonable and wise, it is not what "young love" would agree with. In Friar's point of view, he thinks that loving each other too fast is just as bad as too slow, "too swift arrives as tardy as too slow" which is probably why he is suggesting the two couple to take their time to love each other because "violent delights have violent ends" (sudden joys have sudden endings). However, to Romeo and Juliet, they probably wouldn't understand why they need to take their time to show their passion when they both knew they are madly in love with each other. Even though it might seem like Friar is giving bad advice, I think this actually shows the difference between the old and young. Friar's idea about love is contrasted with the couple's idea about love, thus showing different opinion on the topic love.
Good insight Stephane, you're spot on.
Stephane (question about act 2 scene 3): I'm still a little confused about the Friar's speech in the beginning of scene 3 where he looks like he was talking to himself. (or is it to the audience?) Why did Shakespeare wrote this long speech about "for naught so vile that on the earth doth live but to the earth some special good doth give" and the different uses of plants from earths as the opening for scene 3? Is there a deeper meaning under it (other than the contrast between good and bad) ? Or is there some kind of message Shakespeare is trying to show/tell?

Great question! There is a deeper meaning. This speech develops the theme of duality in the play since nature gives us both life and death, as seen in the quote: "The earth that's nature's mother is her tomb" - just as the earth grows things and bury them in it, love brings joy and sorrow, as well as life and death. This is something we have to learn to accept in life.

Dianna
Again and again, the Friar warns Romeo and Juliet to be careful in their love... we can tell that he feels like something will go wrong. "So smile the heavens upon this holy act/ That after-hours with sorrow chide us not" (2.6.1-2). He prays that God will approve so that later events do not cause regret. Yet, he is willing to risk the consequences of the marriage for a chance to end the feud between the families. This shows something about where the Friar's priorities lie.

Romeo: “come what sorrow can,/ It cannot countervail the exchange of joy/ That one short minute gives me in her sight….love-devouring Death do what he dare/ It is enough that I may but call her mine.” (2.6.3-8)

David:

In response to the Friar’s caution to Romeo and Juliet’s love, Romeo passionately expresses that his love for Juliet is more powerful than death itself; 1 minute in her presence brings him more joy than anything else in the world.

Kenneth
(Most people believe that this quote is associated with prevailing over Death, invulnerability, immortality, etc., but I did not interpret it in that way.)

Romeo is revealed to be reckless and passionate, as implied by his actions in the earlier scenes. Sorrow is said to be feeble compared to the joy that Juliet brings him; one minute's worth is more than enough to offset any sorrow. Entreating Friar Lawrence to marry them, Romeo says that death is not a concern of his once he is married to Juliet, and that it can do whatever it wishes to him. Although he cannot love after he has died, he would no longer be fearful of death once he is married to Juliet, since his marriage to Juliet is his only desire. Obviously, he wishes to live with Juliet forever, but the death that "devours love" would not be a threat to him, as he would be content enough to be able to call her his wife

Jordan:
Romeo shows how deeply in love he is by saying that no matter what sorrow and hardships come his way, he can always overcome it with the joy that his love brings him. He says his love is so strong that just one minute in Juliet's sight is enough for him to even overcome Death.

Dianna:
Romeo states that his joy in seeing Juliet for one mere minute cannot be diminished by any sorrows that he encounters. When he says "Do thou but close our hands with holy words,/ Then love-devouring death do what he dare,/ It is enough that I may but call her mine" (2.6.6-8). He asks Friar Lawrence to marry him and Juliet quickly, because then his life will be complete. It does not matter to him if he dies then, because he will die married to Juliet.

Joo Hyun
Romeo's love toward Juliet is so strong that he can overcome any sorrows with the joy of love between Juliet. Love toward Juliet is stronger than any other things even death.

Juliet: “Conceit, more rich in matter than in words,/ Brags of his substance, not of ornament./ They are but beggars that can count their worth,/ But my true love is grown to such excess/ I cannot sum up sum of half my wealth.” (2.6.30-34)

- Juliet is explaining how her love towards Romeo has grown so much. In the Balcony scene, Juliet was definitely in love with Romeo, but didn't express her love to Romeo that much. However, Juliet realizes how much she loves Romeo, and confesses that she loves Romeo so much that she can't count them.
I think act 2 really is a romantic and important part but also foreshadows the future by making two conflicts; Tybalt challenging Romeo and Romeo and Juliet getting married. [Cindy]

David:
Juliet believes that love makes one more wealthy than money. Anyone that “can count their wealth” is a beggar, because they count money, not the world’s true currency; love. Even if she tries, Juliet cannot sum up half her love for Romeo.

Jordan:
Juliet is just saying that you might be able to count money, but you cannot count love. She says that the latter is more important and substance is what is valued in a person. She concludes that her love for Romeo has grown so much, she cannot even measure half of it.

Joo Hyun:
Juliet says that beggars can count the money they got, but her love toward Romeo has grown so large that she cannot count how much she loves him. She can't even sum up half of her love toward Romeo.
I don't understand "Brags of his substance, not of ornament." means.

David's Question:
What’s cupid’s value in the play? I know he symbolizes love, but is there something deeper? For instance, could the fact that he’s blind serve as a comparison to Romeo and Juliet’s love? If it is blind, what does that mean for the couple?

Great question, David! In Roman mythology, Cupid is the God of erotic love, the Greek equivalent being Eros. He is the child of Venus (Goddess of love and beauty), a lively prankster who spreads love with a bow and arrow. Sometimes he is depicted with two quivers of arrows, gold for love and lead for hatred. References to him suggest a particular view of love: that physical attraction, or erotic love, is so powerful it makes you blind to someone's flaws. We certainly see Romeo and Juliet behaving as if they have been taken over by a powerful force, perhaps not entirely within their control. Here we can see a connection to fate, to the idea that man are just 'playthings of the Gods', as Shakespeare wrote in another play. It also suggests a view of love which is rather random and sexual, but also very joyful. I hope that helps! Ms Kemsley

Erika's question:
"Conceit, more rich in matter than in worth, / Brags of his substance, not ornament." I don't fully understand these two lines; what is Shakespeare trying to say?

edit: Oh yeah, sorry, I copied the quote wrong. Thanks, Kenneth. But what is the word 'ornament' supposed to signify?

Kenneth
Before this quote, Romeo urges Juliet to "sweeten this neighbor air" with what she believes will become of this marriage if she is more articulate and just as ecstatic as he is. She expresses that what is in her mind is inexplicable ("more rich in matter than in words" 2.6.30), and that the content of what she expresses outweighs how it is expressed. The next line is a metaphor comparing something with wealth. However, the idea of wealth or money does not extend beyond the metaphor, as it is mainly just to be a reference. It can be interpreted that her words are of little meaning or worth, as beggars have so little wealth that they are able to physically count it, or perhaps that to be able to count it is to be able to express it in words. Juliet says that she is so overflowing of love that she cannot calculate half her wealth, much less articulate them with words of "little worth".

The actual first line ends with "words", not "worth", so that might have caused a bit of confusion.

edit: Nah, the quote was written incorrectly on the wiki. I think the idea that Juliet refers to her understanding or thoughts as "he", so that what she thinks brags not of ornament, or pretty words, but their substance/content.

Benedict-

To answer the essential question of this conversation, "What is love", I researched in the Encyclopedia of Philosophy to find an introduction to the matter; below is what I copied from the section of 'love'.

Love [addendum]
Since the middle of the twentieth century, analytic philosophers have taken diverse interests in love. Philosophers of mind have asked what kind of psychological state love is. A natural answer is that love is an emotion like any other. Some philosophers, however, find love to be an anomalous emotion, or even not to be an emotion at all. Most types of emotions seem to be triggered by, or partially to consist in, a belief that the emotion is warranted by some fact about its object. Fear of something, for example, typically involves the thought that the thing feared is dangerous or threatening. Love seems to be an exception, since it is unclear what fact about one’s beloved might warrant one’s love for this person. Some are willing to accept love as an emotion despite this anomaly, while others insist that love must be a psychological state of a different kind. The most commonly proposed alternative is that love is a desire, or set of desires, regarding one’s beloved.
The view that love is an anomalous emotion stems from a perception that nothing warrants or justifies it. This raises a second issue that has occupied philosophers: whether there are reasons for love, and if so, what these reasons might be. The most natural candidates for reasons for love would seem to be properties or qualities of the beloved, such as wit, beauty, or kindness. Among many problems with this proposal, three have attracted especially close attention. First, some find the proposal fetishistic, or at least misdirected. It appears to represent love as focused on the beloved’s accidental properties, rather than on that person’s essence. Second, if one’s reasons for loving the beloved are properties, then one’s love ought to wane as the beloved loses those properties. This seems at odds with the thought, famously expressed by William Shakespeare, that “Love is not love/Which alters when it alteration finds.” Finally, if one’s reasons for loving the beloved are properties, then insofar as one’s love is responsive to those reasons, it will soon migrate to another person with those properties in sufficient proportion. This too seems antithetical to love.

Impressed by some of these problems, Harry Frankfurt concludes that while love creates reasons, there are no reasons for love. Love is a structure of desires for which there is no antecedent justification. Love is focused on the particular person whom one loves; it is not a response to some generalizable, justifying property that the person has. Since Jane, say, is the particular person she is and she can neither lose this trait nor share it with anyone else, one’s love for her does not alter as it alteration finds, nor does it transfer to her twin. David Velleman (1999), resisting Frankfurt’s conclusion, suggests that love is a response to a justifying feature that is also identical with the beloved’s essence: Jane’s rational nature or capacity for valuation, for instance. However, this suggestion seems to leave one’s beloved vulnerable to being replaced—indeed, replaced by any other person with a rational nature. A different strategy for avoiding Frankfurt’s conclusion is to suggest that love is a response to the reasons provided by one’s shared history with the person one loves. This would explain why one’s love does not alter as the beloved’s wit or beauty fades, and why one’s love does not accept a substitute with whom no such history is shared. However, the appeal to shared history again threatens to make love focused on the beloved’s accidental properties, rather than on that person’s essence. It also seems to put the cart before the horse. Love seems to precede many relationships, rather than develop with them.
Moral philosophers have been particularly concerned that love, and similar attitudes such as friendship, are in tension with morality, at least as understood in certain theories. The tension is thought to arise because these moral theories—most notably, utilitarianism and Kantianism—require one to be impartial, that is, to give equal weight to everyone’s interests. Love, in contrast, seems to impel one to be partial: to give greater weight to the interests of one’s beloved. The tension has been thought to be more acute at the level of deliberation than at the level of action. While there may be utilitarian and Kantian justifications for permissions, or even requirements, to act as love directs, deliberating in terms of such justifications seems incompatible with love. This incompatibility has generally been seen as a problem for such moral theories, rather than as a problem for love. The incompatibility makes these moral theories seem self- defeating or overly demanding, or it reveals that they fail to take into account something of genuine value.
In defense of these moral theories, some philosophers have insisted that the incompatibility is only apparent. Indirect utilitarians have pointed out that while utilitarianism requires one to do what is best from an impartial standpoint, utilitarianism need not require one to deliberate in impartial terms. Indeed, there may be strong utilitarian reasons for not so deliberating. Kantians have similarly observed that the moral agent need not always be guided by specific reflection on what it is morally permissible to do. A less concessive Kantian response appears in Velleman’s work. Love, he argues, is a “moral emotion,” by which he seems to mean, at least in part, that love is animated by the same value that underlies morality itself.
Other philosophers, however, have insisted that the incompatibility is real. Some of these philosophers urge rejecting impartial moral theories, perhaps in favor of a virtue-based approach. Others see the incompatibility as casting doubt not on the impartiality of morality, but instead on its authority over our lives.

Bibliography
Frankfurt, Harry. Necessity, Volition, and Love. Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press, 1999.
Frankfurt, Harry. The Reasons of Love. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2004.
Green, O. H. “Is Love an Emotion?” In Love Analyzed, edited by Roger E. Lamb. Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1997.
Keller, Simon. “How Do I Love Thee? Let Me Count the Properties.” American Philosophical Quarterly 37 (2) (2000): 163–173.
Kolodny, Niko. “Love as Valuing a Relationship.” Philosophical Review 112 (2) (2003): 135–189.
Taylor, Gabriele. “Love.” Proceedings of the Aristotelian Society 76 (1975–1976): 147–164.
Velleman, David. “Love as a Moral Emotion.” Ethics 109 (2) (1999): 338–374.
Williams, Bernard. “Persons, Character, and Morality.” In his Moral Luck. Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press, 1981.
Wolf, Susan. “Morality and Partiality.” Philosophical Perspectives 6 (1992): 243–259.

Niko Kolodny (2005)

Comment

I believe that the reasoning that love is in tension with morality directly relates to the condition of Romeo and Juliet. They get married against their families' will and also regard one another with unjustified importance.
According to Frankfurt's theory (above), Romeo corresponds to the fact that love can pass on from one person to another; Romeo's love for Rosaline then direct change to loving Juliet. Shakespeare however tries to emphasize that the love that Romeo has for Juliet is not the same as for Rosaline. Here we can say that the love for Rosaline was infatuation and the present love for Juliet is 'true' love. The discrepancy here; Romeo falls in love at first sight with Juliet for her beauty, a concept supported by Frankfurt, then Shakespeare also adds hints that they are truly in love, a concept supported by Frankfurt's opposition, Velleman.

Question

What is the significance of the Friar’s role in Act 2. Does the fact that he is a priest and is close friends with Romeo affect Romeo’s relationship with Juliet? What or who does the Friar represent?

Julia

... I have no idea about the Friar.

If love is desire without reason, as the philosophers say, it must be the only desire in the world that gives people so much joy. Most of the time, wanting something does not make you happier. Getting what you want does. However, being in love can make people very happy. Romeo says, "come what sorrow can,/ It cannot countervail the exchange of joy"
His love for Juliet makes him so happy that he is now unafraid of sadness. He feels that as long as he has her, he'll be happy no matter what tragedy comes his way.

Perhaps if you consider the the object of your desire to be the person you love, this is untrue. Unrequited love (you "want" someone but you can't "have" them) is painful for all parties involved, while knowing your love is returned (you "have" them) will certainly make you happy. But in what other situation would you continue to want something that you already "have"? If the person you love is already yours, why do you continue to love them? This doesn't make sense. Love can't be desire for the person you are in love with. If love is a desire, what is it a desire FOR?

Desires are satisfiable, unless they are for things that come in unspecified quantities. For example, one satisfiable desire would be hunger. You want food. You eat food. Your desire is satisfied. On the other hand, a poor man might desire riches. After starting his own business, he becomes wealthy, but he's still not satisfied. He could keep earning money until the end of time and he still wouldn't be satisified. You're not "rich" after you earn a standard number of dollars/RMB/euros/whatever. And if you're already rich, you know you can always get richer.

Love obviously can't be "satisfied". Therefore, it can't be a desire for something countable, like diversifying the gene pool (if that was the case, people would fall out of love as soon as they had enough kids). Maybe it's a desire to be desired in return? Love itself isn't countable, after all (Juliet says: "I cannot sum up sum of half my wealth," meaning she can't measure how much she loves Romeo.)

The once-poor man got the riches he wanted, which made him happy, but he continues to want more money. Romeo got the girl, which made him happy, but he continues to love her. This means he still wants her to love him more, although she already does.

But more importantly, if love is only a desire to be loved, is is a selfish survival mechanism, like hunger or thirst? Intelligent beings need to be desired/loved like they need food and water, because they would die (probably kill themselves) without it. Hunger exists to remind us that we need food, or we'll start digesting our heart muscles. Thirst exists to remind us that we need water, or our vital body functions will cease. Love exists to remind us that we need to feel wanted, or face the consequences of feeling like a pathetic loser. What hunger and thirst do for your body, love does for your mind.

Interesting comments so far! You seem a bit stuck on the Friar. He has several important roles in the play. Firstly, he moves the plot forward. It's his terrible plan that eventually leads to all the deaths. Secondly, he develops themes: the difference between youth and age in attitudes towards love, the fact that nature provides both healing power and death, as love does. He is key to helping us understand the major contrasts in the play. He also acts as a foil to the Nurse. I hope that helps! Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Ms Kemsley

Kenneth
@David: The fact that Cupid is “blind” can be interpreted in several ways. It can be said that he “shoots his arrows blindly”, meaning that the couples that he creates are random and without any basis. Should this be the true meaning, Shakespeare would be conveying the message that Romeo and Juliet are the most unpredicted couple possible. Another explanation is that he is impartial, allowing love to blossom anywhere, disregarding any differences between people, as shown in the love between the Montague and the Capulet. Although far-fetched, another possible interpretation is that Cupid’s love is founded on character, and not the directly perceptible characteristics, perhaps even to the point of being oblivious to any flaws.

@Benedict: Friar Lawrence plays an important role in the play as a parallel character of Juliet’s nurse. Both characters are father/mother figures, respectively, to Romeo and Juliet, and although their relationship with the characters are similar, their personalities contrast, which is significant in “Romeo and Juliet”. As made evident by the nurse’s actions, she prioritizes Juliet’s true emotions, as opposed to the friar, who wishes to mend the feud (2.4.97-99). The fact that Friar Lawrence is a religious man and a friend of Romeo’s is serendipity, however it does not affect the relationship in itself. By being acquainted with a friar, he can be married with Juliet in secret without hindrance.

Love is an inexplicable feeling that is neither a desire nor an emotion. While one can argue that love is the desire for love or the presence of another, it is satisfiable through finding love from another, and thus cannot be continued. Otherwise, one couldn't say that he or she "loved" someone. However, these go hand in hand. When one loves, he or she begins to desire love and the presence of whom they love. Love is not an emotion, as it is inducible by few, and it is not a state as much as it is something to possess. The best it can be described as is an uncontrollable, powerful attraction. Love itself causes ecstasy and often dominates one's life, in addition to numbing the mind of all flaws regarding the individual's love. As shown in "Romeo and Juliet", the genuineness of love is often determined by its foundation and its length. Today, young love has connotations of transience, illustrated as lacking sincerity. Romeo and Juliet fall in love in a few moments' time, and this weak foundation of love causes it to appear to be lust, a distorted love.

Questions:
Was the word “wench” a derogatory term during the time of “Romeo and Juliet”? (I know it doesn’t relate to the content, but it’s for my character analysis)
Was it abnormal to marry so suddenly in Elizabethan times, especially with the prevalence of arranged marriages?
I'm not quite sure I understand lines 16-20 in scene 6 very well. Is he denouncing the ideals of lovers?
Is scene 4 written in prose to emphasize the comedy?
Had Romeo not begged Juliet for a vow of loyalty in scene 2, line 132, would she have remained more conservative as expressed in line 123 to 131?

Edit: Yeah, you're right, Julia. But I guess the fact that love isn't really a state of mind makes it not an emotion, although being IN love is. I thought maybe that it wouldn't be an emotion because it's so exclusive, unlike emotions where there's a definite way to evoke them (?). I guess genuine love really can't be linked to Romeo and Juliet.

This gets tricky though, because lust is a desire that is ongoing, and Romeo and Juliet are often claimed to be lustful, not in love. My best guess is that love is an attraction that brings desire.

Love is a very general word and the fact that we have to delve so deeply into the world to find its meaning makes it difficult to pinpoint. Romeo and Juliet may have had a strong, mutual attraction, but this does not mean it must be true love. I guess a good question would be:
Does true love have to be mutual, or can it be unrequited? Must it be something that is spontaneous and occurs in a split second, or does it edge into life as time passes?

Julia
When the word "wench" originated in the 13th century, it just meant a girl or young woman (coming from the word "wenchel," meaning child). By the mid 14th century, it meant a woman of lose morals. So it probably was a derogatory term.

You're right, love is better explained as being an attraction rather than a desire. But can't you continue being in love after you find it? Additionally, just because it is inducible by few doesn't mean that it's not an emotion. Hatred, for example, is an emotion that is inducible by few people. In fact, I would think that you can love anything (as a friend, family member, pet, etc.) if you can bring yourself to accept them. Romantic love is just one type of love. Also, I don't believe that love numbs the mind of all flaws. I think it just makes you accept them (for example, you love your parents, but I assume that you also recognize their flaws).

Erin:
“Soon so forsaken? Young men’s love then lies Not truly in their hearts, but in their eyes.” (2.3.71-72)

Comment:
I think that Friar Lawrence is asking why Romeo stopped loving Rosaline so soon. He means that if a women is beautiful then a man will love her. He’s trying to tell Romeo to be careful with Juliet, and that men with their eyes not their hearts.

Question:
Why would the Friar help Romeo so quickly, if he knew that “young men’s love then lies Not truly in their hearts, but in their eyes.” Shouldn’t he know better and get Romeo to rethink it over? Erin, I think this question has been answered by Kenneth and me - read the wiki!

Dianna
Juliet seems insecure about love, wondering if she was too easily won, and constantly implying Romeo whether his love is real. “If that they bent of love be honorable, / Thy purpose marriage…” (2.2.150-151). Note the use of the word “if”. “But if thou meanest not well, I do beseech thee… To cease thy strife and leave me to my grief” (2.2.158, 161). She knows that love can cause pain, which brings me to another point.

Juliet sees love as a very powerful thing. She describes her love to Romeo: “My bounty is as boundless as the sea, /My love as deep. The more I give to thee, /The more I have, for both are infinite” (2.2.140-142). These are powerful words, or at least, more so than Romeo’s mushy, lovey-dovey descriptions of love: “With love’s light wings did I o’erperch these walls,” (2.2.71) and "For I ne'er saw true beauty till this night" (1.5.60). If it weren't for Romeo's overuse of these kinds of statements, they might actually be believable... but still would create the same kind of impact that Juliet's words do.

At the beginning of Act 2 Scene 6, Romeo states that the joy he feels in seeing Juliet will not be diminished by any misfortune, and we already know that the joy he feels in seeing the beautiful Juliet is his idea of love. However, earlier, Juliet says, “Yet I should kill thee with much cherishing” (2.2.198). She is implying that loving too much can kill, and at the same time, foreshadowing.

In conclusion, it seems that Juliet’s outlook on love is slightly more negative than that of Romeo’s. She believes that love can destroy as well as flourish, and Romeo thinks more along the lines that love can conquer all misfortunes.

(Am I just being delusional?)

Questions:
On page 107 of the text, in Act 2 Scene 5, why does the nurse switch between speaking in verse and prose?
In Act 2 Scene 4, even Benvolio and Romeo engage in harassing the nurse, calling her fat and ugly, and poking fun at her malapropisms. I thought kids were brought up better back then, or is it just because they're part of the aristocracy? Remember they are not real people. Sometimes you need to think of them as characters and what their function to the plot or action is. Here, Shakespeare is creating a comic scene and the idea is that all the boys join in teasing the Nurse. You'll see when we watch it that it's quite good natured, not malicious really. Ms K
Is uniting the families in love Friar Lawrence's only intention in marrying Romeo and Juliet? He seems to look down upon their love, judging by line 2.6.9 and 2.6.16-20. I think that's his main reason - he seems to be a bit of a bumbling would-be politician to me. Maybe he's seeking recognition as the man who ended the feud. Also, however, he seems genuinely affectionate towards Romeo and wants his happiness.Ms K
I know the nurse wants Juliet to be happy, but is there any other reason she tolerates Juliet's love to an enemy? Does she consider herself above the feud? Or does she, like Friar Lawrence, want it to end? I don't think Shakespeare gives us enough information about the Nurse's motivation to answer this question. She is a minor character, designed to add comic relief, act as a foil to both the Friar and Lady Montague, and to move the plot forward by assisting the lovers.

Erica So
The Friar says in 2.3 from line 69 to 85 that he feels Romeo moved on from Rosaline too fast. Does he feel that Romeo and Juliet’s love is simply infatuation because it came so suddenly?

To define “love” is not simply hard, but basically impossible as well. The definition of love is interpretable and when interpreted, it is completely different for person to person. It is impossible to understand the complex feelings you develop when you’re in love. As Romeo had said in 2.2, “He jests at scars that never felt a wound.”, which shows that you can’t understand what it means to be in love until you feel it firsthand. Love causes you to do the unthinkable. It can make you climb a wall, to defy those close to you, and cause hate in unexpected places. Love is triggered and formed by many others little emotions. In return, it triggers other emotions as well. It creates and makes the world go around. Love is the higher power that cannot be controlled and only knows how to control. It’s like cupid and his blind shooting. Fate decides who loves whom. Fate decides what love is and how the love will be. Therefore love is fate. It is love that makes the world so chaotic and completely perfect all at once. Love creates heaven and hell, not the supernatural.

Edwin Z
Quote: "By my true love is grown to such excess I cannot sum up sum of half my wealth." - Juliet (2.6.33 - 2.6.34)
Comment: The quote is such a cliché, stating that money can't buy love is an expression that many use without reason. Maybe the author is trying to emphasize the emptiness of this love by putting in cliché sarcasms, or show how love-at-first-sight grows so fast that money is no figure (until it's too late and divorce lawyers are added to the equation). In fact, many arguments in a marriage are related to financial problems. The media stats that 1 in 2 marriages end in a divorce; the other half, well, they end in death. Nearly every single problem in a relationship can be traced down to money; miscellaneous problems are a completely different category (ie. fraud, adultery, cheating...etc..). Although the media isn't necessary correct, money is a key part in many relationships, even if it means having too much money (arguing over who pays the bill during the first date). This is why alimonies are invented. In countries such as China, why do people stay married even if they argue with their spouse 5 hours a day? Some might say these people stay married because of money, since the term alimony isn't common in the area. The spouse who doesn't work for money doesn't want to get divorced because he/she hasn't worked for 30 years or has no financial support if a divorce does come. This will give the money-making spouse some leverage (until his/her husband/wife finds a job). It's no doubt that money is a factor (even if it's 0.00001%) in every relationship, it guides decisions in life (ie. how many children, how luxurious of a house, schooling...etc...). All in all, Shakespeare might've included this line to show that the love between Romeo and Juliet is growing so fast that it will stay as immature love, since the love has no foundation. Maybe this line foreshadows danger (death that comes later on in the play), because it's nothing unusual for a relationship (where both spouses ignore financial concerns) to end disastrously.
Question: When the nurse continues to express her pain (physical pain, from all the running/moving), is she actually expressing her mental anguish and signalling out danger or is it jsut comedy relief? Is the nurse's perspective of the feud the same as Friar's? (does she want the marriage to happen so the feud will end?)

Antonio C:
Comment about quotes: There is a great change in not only language, but context in all three quotes. I like to see how Romeo uses more dark words when talking about love like death, comparing to how the Friar uses tasteful language to descibe love.
Comment: i thought it was really interesting the contrast of opinion towards Romeos and Juleits weeding between the young and the old. The old being the nurse and the Friar, do not recommend the weeding. The nurse also tells Juliet that it is too soon and that she is too young, and the friar tells Romeo to reconsider. While Romeo and Juliet both want to jump into the idea as quickly as they can, they love the idea of the weeding. And this can represent the difference between the young and the old.
Question: My question is regarding to Romeos and Mercutios arguments in scene four act 2. I do not understand it, or what it is about.

1B

Friar is saying in the first quote that love should be taken in moderation and one shouldn’t move to fast or to slow into it if one wants love to last. This shows how more realistic and thoughtful Friar is towards love then Romeo or Juliet saying not to rush things in which Romeo and Juliet are doing, in this case getting married. In addition their marriage according to Friar's belief might be foreshadowing their death and why their lives end later on.

-I think that young and old people do have different ideas/opinion on love as older people are more experienced and more thoughtful on who they choose to share their love and life with. While as younger people sometimes think their in "love" but in reality are just learning. Older people tend to be more concerned about their partners background, status, job, personality, etc in result of thinking ahead about their future. While a younger person, like Romeo might solely be more concerned about their partners looks.

(Vivian Zhang 1B)

- Romeo is saying that it doesn't matter what bad things may happen because there is so much happiness between him and Juliet. Even looking at her for a very short period of time makes him ecstatic and joyful. He feels stronger and able to confront anything when he sees Juliet because he says that "love- devouring death do what he dare." He doesn't think that anything can stop the love he feels for Juliet.

- I agree with Vivian that old and young people have very different ideas when it comes to love. Romeo and Juliet are rushing into a marriage only a day after their meeting. You would hear from any rational person that you should get to know somebody before getting married. The Friar even told Romeo that those who rush into relationships may not end up having an everlasting relationships. Young people are generally rash and jump into things without thinking much (like Romeo and Juliet who rush into marriage). Romeo is too obsessed by Juliet's looks and you would think that Juliet would have a bit more sense in her, partly because of the behavior we saw exhibited by her towards her mother and partly because she is a girl (no offense to guys), who usually think things through more than guys do.

~Amreen Ahmad~

-The question "What is Love?" addressed to different people will yield different results. Ask Romeo, and he will say that Love is the face that shines brighter than stars, love is the beauty that dims torches by comparison, and love is the sweet voice of Juliet. Ask Juliet, and she will try to be patient and mature while being head over heels in love with Romeo. She'll say that love is supposed to go slow but the passion of love is so very consuming and powerful. I think that above all, love is what gives people power to do things that they normally cannot. For example, I love the line Romeo says about love's wings. "With love's light wings did I o'erperch these walls" (2.2.71). It's so beautiful and romantic. In Scene 6 when Romeo and Juliet are talking about their love, you can see that being in each other's presence enamors them and makes them so joyful.

-Since Vivian's commented on the Friar and Amreen's done Romeo, I'll just briefly talk about Juliet's quote. She's basically saying how her love for Romeo has grown to such an amount that she can't even count how much. I'm not completely sure as she seems to be talking about a lot of things, but that seems to be the central message of her "true love is grown to such excess", I think it's basically her public [or at least as public a church can get] admission of her love for Romeo.

-This is about the entire act 2, right? Because I didn't really understand when the nurse came and asked Juliet if she had to go to shrift... does anyone know what shrift is? (scene 5).

-Amreen; I agree with what you said about Romeo, but I think you missed the first part of the quote. "Come what sorrow can". I think this has a big part to do with the theme of the book. It's like Romeo is challenging sorrow to come because he feels that nothing can dampen his joy with Juliet. And perhaps it's like he's tempting fate because indeed... sorrow comes... and they die.

------Angela Lu
Great comments Angela! Shrift is communion. Ms Kemsley.

Friar Lawrence's view of love is definitely different from Romeo and Juliet's; he's obviously a lot older and wiser, and is a mentor to Romeo. He doesn't necessarily reject Romeo's love with Juliet, but he isn't completely happy about how quickly it happened, either. He sees their relationship and proposal for marriage as an opportunity to right larger wrongs such as the family feud between the Montagues and Capulets. His attitude towards their relationship is a bit of an oxymoron; he thinks that they're doing things too fast and that they're being too rash, rushing into their relationship too quickly, but his desire to "use" their relationship to heal the family feud wins out above his concern for their relationship.

When Friar Lawrence says "So smile the heavens upon this holy act," it's a little bit like he's reassuring himself and Romeo that what he's doing is right, despite the more logical notion that Romeo and Juliet would need to slow down or else unfortunate consequences would come of the speed of the development of their relationship.

I agree with Vivian's statement about the second quote; Friar Lawrence is basically saying "everything in moderation." I also just have to point out that again, even though the Friar is wise and thoughtful, and is constantly reminding Romeo to take it slow, he contradicts himself by agreeing to marry them in the first place.

My question: why does Friar Lawrence do this? Does this somehow indicate that he doesn't truly care for Romeo's wellbeing? (Because he knows AND advises Romeo not to marry too fast because it'll destroy their relationship, but he marries them anyway.)
He really hopes that it will end the feud. He's meddling in politics! Ms Kemsley

--------Wei-Wei (is everyone having a good long weekend? It's so hot outside! D:)

- I agree with Vivian's idea about how the Friar thinks one shouldn't move too fast or too slowly for love to last. I think that the fact that Romeo and Juliet seem to rush their relationship and choose to get married so quickly is interesting. I think that the Friar's statement is supposed to give us a foreboding feeling that something bad within Romeo and Juliet's relationship is about to happen, not the outcome because we already know they die from the prologue, but maybe HOW they reach that outcome. Even though Shakespeare aims to portray their love as "pure" and like it is love at first sight, it is because the two were too rushed and made decisions on impulse (like Romeo killing himself after he THINKS Juliet is dead) that ultimately lead to the end of their love and their lives. Maybe this is another lesson Shakespeare is trying to teach us?

- Answering Wei-Wei's question: [By the way, this is just what i THINK] I think that the Friar marries them anyways because he Romeo is finally happy with Juliet, as he was not with Rosaline. The Friar seems to acknowledge that and is happy for him when he says "That's good my son" (2.3.50) after hearing that Romeo was no longer in love with Rosaline. The Friar probably did not prevent them from marrying because Romeo was heartbroken when he could not be with Rosaline, and he would probably feel the same if him and Juliet could not marry. Romeo and the Friar seem to have a close relationship, as they call each other "father" and "son". I think that the Friar DOES care for Romeo, but maybe more about his feelings at the moment than in the future. Also, he hopes that their getting married will end the feud between the Capulets and the Montagues.

---------------------------------------------------------------------Charles Li Wang (and yes, i am having a good long weekend, thank you)----------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Like what Vivian had said, the Frair's view of love is very different from both Romeo and Juliet's. The Frair is more realistic about love and want to take love slowly so people can learn and understand each other. The Frair's unique view of love is likely caused by his age and experience, which brings up the theme, oppositions. A youngster always have different opinions than the elder one and that is clearly portrayed in this situation where the Friar wants to take love slowly and think love someone too much will not be the best choice. On the other hand, Romeo and Juliet are deeply in love and want to be married quickly, that brings up another opposition, fast and slow. Through just that short scene two opposition are portrayed and give readers a feeling of contrast between the characters and portrays each character more thoroughly through those oppositions.

-I agree with Charles's view on Frair's odd action and adding to Charles's response about Wei-Wei's question, the Frair's action also foreshadows that things will happen as he said and Romeo and Juliet's marriage will end as fast how long it took them to get married. Although Romeo and Juliet were quickly in love and love each other too much, something tragic will help to both of them that will break them apart just like what Frair said about the honey. From Frair's action it can also be seen that Romeo and Juliet's love were fated at the beginning and their marriage will not last forever.

Luke W. (YES! I am also having a great long weekend)
Wow! Great comments everyone. You're understanding act two really well. Now get out there an enjoy the sunshine! Ms Kemsley.

Obviously, Friar and Romeo's perspective of love are in contrast throughout this scene. Throughout the scene, Friar constantly warns Romeo to act with more caution and moderation if he wants an everlasting love with Juliet. Friar's view of marriage is similar to older people's view of marriage now a days. Older people are more careful and thoughtful of love and marriage since they probably have more experience, where as younger people are not so cogitative of their decision towards love and their future. Even though Friar keeps waring Romeo that love should be taken slowly and patiently, Romeo tells him "But come what sorrow can/It cannot countervail the exchange of joy/That one short minute gives me in her sight". Romeo only wants to enjoy his feelings towards Juliet's looks, and being able to call her name is all he wants. He's feelings towards love is still immature. He is a strong believer in love at first sight, therefore, can't express love as deeply as someone who has experienced love for a long time. Juliet's love is as immature as Romeo's. She quotes "But my true love is grown to such excess/I cannot sum up sum of half my wealth" She strongly believes that she has fallen deeply in love with Romeo, that she cant express how much she loves him. But, in my opinion, she is just learning.

Like what some of you guys have commented, I also noticed that Friar foreshadows what something tragic will occur later in the play because of their hurried act of love. Even from the beginning of the scene he quotes "So smile the heavens upon this holy act/That after-hours with sorrow chide us not". In this quote, Friar tells Romeo that heaven will not be happy about their fast decision of their marriage and that something unfortunate is likely to happen by this holy act that they will regret. Also, when Romeo opposes Friar by saying that he only wants to enjoy it, he warns him, "These violent delights have violent ends". He foreshadows that something unfortunate will happen due to sudden happiness.

Sally Park (The weather is really hot outside :S but its nice! and yes Wei Wei! i am having a fun weekend....maybe :))

---

-There are many scenes in Act 2, mentioning about love, the theme of Romeo and Juliet. The most noticeable part of Act 2 must be the comparison and clash between the two contrasting ideas of love. I agree with both Luke and Vivian that Frair's love is very different from what is Romeo and Juliet's. Frair do not believe in first sight love and he strongly believes that loving someone need time. Due to his age and experiences, Frair knows more about what is love and he knows how to decide things on love. He believes it must be slowed down and people need time to get to know each other and start love each other by then. On the other hand, Romeo and Juliet is deeply in love with each other by first sight. Because they think that they are so in love, they want to be married the next day they've met. Therefore, Shakespeare, by contrasting variety of thoughts on love, has emphasized the theme of love and how different people view love in different matters. Some very realistically, but some in a very passionate manner.

-I also liked about Friar's speech in Act 2, write plants as a symbol of love, and explaining his own point of view. Plants can be both poisonous and medical. Friar relate this to Romeo and Juliet's love relations that they are as happy healing each other's pain like a medicine, but they are in opposing sides of family as enemies, hurting each other like being posionous. Therefore, their love relations cannot be easily accepted by people. I really liked how Shakespeare could express this sort of love in a poetic manner, explaining love as a symbol of plants.

-Questions: What can be some effects of Shakespeare, writing about love by contrasting different views and thoughts (on love)?

----------------------------------Nah young--------------------------------------------------

-I think love is something undefined. It's impossible to classify it, impossible to label or make sense of the emotions that come with it. Everyone's viewpoint on what love is differs, and age group definitely affects ideas. Friar is an elderly man who deals with the subject of love frequently, as he often encounters couples in love who want to get married. With first hand experience, Friar knows what makes love last, and good relationships flourish. He believes that if marriage means spending your life together forever, you should not rush into it, but instead take things slowly in order to maintain a stronger relationship. His opinion on love opposes Romeo’s strongly, which provides good contrast.

- Romeo believes in love at first sight, and falls for Juliet the moment he catches sight of her. Though it may seem like fate, as Juliet feel the same way, I think their relationship is more impulsive, and appealing because there is the risk factor, which makes their love more dangerous and intriguing. The fact that their families are rivals make them feel as though they must rush into things, taking the risk, and that any time wasted could somehow separate them. Shakespeare presents Romeo and Juliet’s love as whimsical, romantic and sweet, but I think he uses Friar’s opinion and speech to counter that viewpoint. He provides both a realistic viewpoint and a romantic viewpoint, but uses Romeo and Juliet’s youth to show that ‘young love’ is also foolish love, and true love cannot be found without time.

I like your idea that the danger adds excitement Nah Young - I agree! Ms K

Remy? : I think Shakespeare presents both the realistic and romantic viewpoint on love to create a great sense of contrast, but with that you see that the difference in age is also quite a contrast. Perhaps he is criticizing young love and how foolish and unwise it is, while using Friar to bring a sense of reality, wisdom and an opinion on true love, held by someone with experience. It covers both the opinion on love of the younger generation, and that of the older generation as well.

Or - just to play deviil's advocate - Shakespeare is presenting young love as the passionate ideal and the old people's views as cynical and outdated. After all, the Capulets seem very unhappy, and the Friar's advice doesn't turn out well at all......Ms K

----------------------Remy---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Love is like glue. There are different types of love, and there are also different types of glue. Love can be very sudden, like super glue. In most cases, it can be very gradual, like Elmer’s School Glue. Super glue dries very fast and it turns rock hard, within seconds, liquid becomes a solid. But the only problem with using super glue is that, because it becomes a solid so fast, the solid can also shatter very fast. Just say, a teacher accidentally broke her favorite mug and the handle fell off. She decides to use super glue to stick it back together. It looks good as new, but then after a couple times washing it in the dishwasher, she fills it with tea, picks it up, takes some sips, and just when she was about to put it back down beside her Mac, the handle falls off again and the mug drops right on her keyboard. At first, super glue may seem like it will last forever, but then sooner or later, it will crack and snap. At first, sudden love (or love at first sight), may seem like it will last forever, but then sooner or later, it will also crack and snap. However, in this case, the teacher shouldn’t have used Elmer’s School Glue either, if she has to choose to fix the mug, the smartest choice would have been to use Elmer’s Glue All.(**http://www.elmers.com/product/detail/E1322** ) It would take nearly ten times more the time super glue would use to dry up, but then it will definitely be sure to last 10 times longer than using super glue. It does not just take a blink of an eye to unite a couple for their life.
“So smile the heavens upon this holy act/ That after-hours with sorrow chide us not.”(2.6.1-2) The Friar starts off Romeo and Juliet’s marriage by this meaningful line. He wishes the heavens will be happy of this holy act of marriage. He hopes nothing of an unfortunate event will happen in the future path of this marriage. The Friar foreshadows the “unfortunate events” that lay in the path of Romeo and Juliet’s marriage, which later is discovered as their death.
One thing that I don’t fully understand about the Friar is that, if he seems so sure that something unpleasant will happen in the future of Romeo and Juliet’s swift marriage, why doesn’t he refuse to perform the marriage? Why won’t he prevent Romeo and Juliet from making the mistakes of their lives? He is a member of the church, not some gang. The Friar is committing a crime, an act of inhumanity!
Aaron, I totally agree. The friar is a moron and acts totally immorally. I think Shakespeare does this to refute the idea that the old are always wise and the young are always impetuous, naive.
--Aaron Zhang
In Romeo and Juliet each character has a different opinion on love not just because of the different types of love like Aaron said, but their impression on it. Romeo believes in love at first sight and acts impulsively. Juliet at the beginning wants to take it slowly but also like Romeo she thought it was fate that brought them together. The Friar is realistic about love and people need to take it slowly to actually fall in love. The contrast between the Friar and Romeo and Juliet foreshadows the death of the two lovers and the prolonged feud of the two households. - Concerned about their swift marriage and answering what Aaron said, the Friar thinks that with the marriage between Romeo and Juliet will end the feud of the Montagues and Capulets. But however, going back to one of the themes of the play, its fate that they die at the end. I also like the comparison that Aaron made of glue and love.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Roger------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the first quote, Friar is trying to tell Romeo that he wants God to smile upon the act of Romeo getting married. However, he warns Romeo that love can be dangerous, and you shouldn't move to fast, like Romeo was. He says that for love to "taste" the best, you have to take it at the right pace. Not too fast, or too slow. The second quote, is when Romeo is saying that his life will be complete, as soon as he can call Juliet his wife. One minute after that, and death can take him. But not one second before.

To Remy's question: I think that, since the Friar is a priest, and seems to know Romeo very well, he seems forced to marry the two. Also, since Friar is obviously of neither the Montague or Capulet family, he is probably honored that Romeo came to him. Once again, if you were in the Friar's place, and someone whom you know well came to you and asked if you could marry him/her, you would probably say yes, just for the thought of your friend marrying. On the other hand, the Friar might not even know what might happen in the future. Shakespeare may have put this incident of foreshadowing to purposely put this question in our heads.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Tim------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the scene where the Friar and Romeo are talking about getting the two married, The friar says" Young men's love then lies Not truly in their hearts, but in their eyes." The friar suggests that these days young men only love beauty and not for who the person truly is. Such as the stereo typical Blonde( Not trying to be offensive in anyway) The Stereo typical blonde is known to be extremely beautiful but also extremely stupid. So although she is beautiful, she is stupid and there is a possibility that someone has only liked her for her beauty, and not for who they truly are as a person. The Friar is then skeptical about Romeo's change in person he loves because it was too fast and he knows that it takes longer to know someone than to look at them. Therefore he says at the end "Wisely and slow. They stumble that run fast."

A question that I have is that couldn't they have just waited longer and just be together for a while? Couldn't Romeo and Juliet just continue seeing each other secretly? I know that that the most probable reason that they fell in love so fast was because Shakespeare wanted to show their love for each other was extremely strong. But I would still like my question to be answered about couldn't they have just kept meeting secretly?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Kelvin-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like what a lot of people have said Friar’s view of love is very different compared to Romeo and Juliet’s. In my point of view, Friar’s perspective upon love is a lot more realistic. Romeo and Juliet’s love for each other seems less realistic because of the way they rush into things. I personally agree with Friar’s view, which is that love at first sight does not exist. However, I realize that Shakespeare uses some inappropriate, perverted characters to make what Romeo and Juliet have seemed more believable and not too fast and only uses Friar’s views to provide contrast.

What inspired Shakespeare to write about love?



As many people have already commented, Friar's view contrasts the romantic and passionate love of Romeo and Juliet. I liked how Romeo and Juliet made love sound so romantic, dream like and passionate with their brief meeting by the balcony and then suddenly, in the next scene Friar enters and makes love sound so different with his own view on love. I liked the contrast formed on the view of love because I think it shows how love is not just one idea or concept with one definite definition but has different meaning and effect to each people. I also liked how Friar kind of foreshadows the tragedy to come due to their rushed love because it makes love sound so powerful and fated. I don't know the exact point of using so much contrasts in love but I think this helps the audience to think more deeply about love, which is the central theme of the play. Or maybe he is just trying to make Romeo and Juliet's love more romantic and passionate by making Friar's view on love sound logical and cool.
Question:

I have to write about Friar later for the wiki assignment and I am not sure if he should be considered a bad character or good character because he seems to be a wise and thoughtful character in a way but contradict himself at the end by consenting the marriage and he seems cold when he uses their love knowing that tragedy will come. So he seems to be really mixed kind of character to me ...
Hae Min, he is quite a paradoxical character. You will have to wait until the end of the play to make your mind up! In the meantime, write balanced notes about good things he does AND doubts you have. You don't need to come to a conclusion yet! Ms K

-----------------------Hae Min Cho -------------------------------

3B

Friar Lawrence is saying that something as sweet and wonderful as honey can also make you sick, from having too much of it too quickly. He is warning Romeo that the two young lovers are being too hasty; their love may not last. True, long-lasting love must mature slowly. These lines have the wisdom and logic of an old soul. They are spoken without any spontaneous influence from passion so of course, no pair of eager lovers would ever listen to what he is saying.
- Casey

I like your response to this, Casey. In this scene, The Friar is obviously opposed, if not humored, by Romeo's new "infatuation". He reminds Romeo that just days ago he was obsessed with Rosaline, how could he forget her so quickly? I'm sure the friar had his doubts on the legitimacy of Romeo's love. If he can move on so quickly, who's to say he wouldn't forget Juliet, as he forgot Rosaline? Though Romeo says Juliet's beauty is of no compare, he said the same things of Rosaline before he met Juliet. One would argue that he could easily see someone even more beautiful than Juliet and forget about her altogether. On the other hand, maybe he never "knew true beauty" before Juliet, and he was just mislead. So, back to what you said Casey, i agree with the friar that real love has to mature, and it takes time. I think they are being too hasty, but why did the friar go along with it?

-Regan

Casey said that "no pair of eager lovers would ever listen to what he is saying", but didn't they state several times that even though they loved each other so much they still thought it was going too fast, Do Romeo and Juliet still feel they are moving too fast?- Erik

In this quote, the constant repetition of the positive and the negative aspects of love is shown. He compares love with honey to convey the sweetness of love, yet he does not forget the effects of having too much passion from love. Too sweet, too much and too sudden does not create real, enduring love. Instead, it could be blinding and misleading. Although Friar that true love must be loved moderately, with passion, and slowly, he is convinced by Romeo's speech about his love towards Juliet. He strongly hopes that this marriage will bring the two hating families together. Following Friar's own believes about love, Romeo and Juliet's love is too rushed, too sudden, and most likely will not last. Friar "went along with it" because he hopes for Romeo and Juliet to to be different from his beliefs. He hopes for it to be love with passion as sweet as honey. Although sudden, it will still be ever-lasting. -Angela
Friar's opinion towards love is full of wisdom and "logic", yet is that what love is supposed to be?- Angela

The Friar obviously is concerned with the legitimacy of Romeo's love, as Regan stated above, but what about Juliet? Juliet has no idea about Romeo's prior obsession with Rosaline. She has no idea that Romeo's love has changed so quickly and abruptly. Being the practical person that she has shown herself to be, do you guys think that Juliet's feelings for Romeo would change if she found out about Rosaline? I think that Juliet's feelings for Romeo would have been altered if she knew about Rosaline. I think that learning of this prior obsession could make Juliet seriously question the depth of their love. The fact that Juliet is not aware of this crucial piece of information, supports the Friar's views stated in the quote above that the lovers are being to hasty. They haven't really taken the time to get to know each other, and know nothing about each other's past. Their love is so rash and unstable that the slightest bit of new information could change the course of their love.
- Junee

You're right Junee, i never thought of that. But i agree, if i was Juliet, and i found out i was his "next big thing" or even possibly a rebound, i wound definitely question the legitimacy of Romeo's love. Especially since Juliet is so young, it is likely that Romeo is her FIRST love, so she has no past, and no one to compare Romeo too. It is easy for her love to be true, because Romeo really is her first, true love. Romeo, on the other hand, was practically obsessed with Rosaline just days before. Though Romeo swears that her never knew anything of love before meeting Juliet, i think she still has the right to know. No wonder friar is concerned with the couple's rashness, he knows things about Romeo that Juliet doesn't even know...that shows you something.
-Regan

That's a really interesting point, Junee! I like the way you're empathising with Juliet. Ms K.

Question: Is Friar Lawrence saying these wise words because of his lack of faith in love? Or does he truly cares about Romeo and doesn’t want him to get hurt again?
-Iris

He doesn't lack faith in love, Iris, he cares about Romeo and he just has an older person's view of love as being about getting to know each other, not impetuous passion. Ms K

I agree to what Casey, Regan, and Angela previously stated about Friar Lawrence’s quote that if their love comes too quickly and is too much, then it will not last. From this statement, it seems that the Friar is familiar with Romeo’s impulsive personality and is giving him a warning. Like the Friar, I feel that Romeo and Juliet’s love has blossomed too quickly and does not seem to be legit. One of the key factors that make Romeo and Juliet the quintessential love story is that their love transcends the feud between their two families. However, the fact that Romeo was previously in love with Rosaline, another Capulet, completely undermines this and makes their love seem fake and childish. I also find it interesting that many people regard Romeo and Juliet’s story to epitomize the ultimate love. However within the play itself, there are characters that doubt the legitimacy of their love. I now feel that the story has been heavily altered throughout the centuries to create this image and was not exactly Shakespeare’s original intent.
-Tracey
It's not what you expected then! I think you're right to an extent, but don't forget dramatists have to condense a lot of activity into a short space of time. This can seem unrealistic on the page, but when all the elements of performance work together on stage it's much more convincing. Ms K.

I've already commented too much, but as i was doing that Act 2 Scene 3 homework, i couldn't think of any connections the friar's speech had to the rest of the play. I noticed that there is a connection between good and bad, all the plants he talked about have the potential to do good things, but if mistreated or misused, things can go badly. Just like in love, Romeo and Juliet's love had the potential to be great and sweet, but circumstances beyond their control destroyed the love they had by causing them both to take their life. And, like said above, he shows the contrast between young and old, but other than that, is there really any purpose to his speech? Couldn't this scene have been shorter if it was only conveying one or two main messages?

-Regan

This is also an interesting point for the old vs young opposition. Romeo and Juliet rush in to love, very fast, without even having to get to know each other the right way. They are deeply infatuated and obsessed with one another that they think that are in love. The older people go slower, have already loved and lost and have gone through their life, to know, that falling so quickly in to "love" can be harmful to a relationship, because they do not know each other all that well.
-Dawson

Romeo and Juliet love each other passionately, and we can see this because they ignore many warnings, and continue their love despite many bad signs. The Friar's warnings, Romeo's dreams, and Juliet's unsettling feelings are ignored and their love remains the same despite this warnings.
-Tina

I also think the Friar is telling them the sweetest thing will change so fast, and it represents Romeo and Juliet who love each other deeply. Friar is warning them to love each other moderately. Also Friar knows that their love is too fast as Romeo changed his mind so quickly from Rosaline to Juliet, Friar warns them "To swift arrives as tardy as too slow".
-Jina
Friar Laurence has different view on love from Juliet and Romeo as lots of people commented already. He tries to used their love to end the family feud but also wants Romeo to slow down because he thinks they are being too reckless and rush. He makes love sound so logical and planned in contrast to Romeo and Juliet's effort to make love seem dream-like and romantic.
Question: What is the reason Shakespeare uses so much contrasting views about love?
-Michael Kim

Question: So Friar Lawrence says this line because he is obviously feeling uneasy about their marriage, but is it because of the fact that he is the one who will be responsible for their marriage? He obviously knows about the feud between the two big families, is he afraid of future consequences or does this line have a literal meaning? and that he is scared because of Romeo’s quick shift of love interest and thinks it will only last a while.
-Elizabeth
Romeo: “come what sorrow can,/ It cannot countervail the exchange of joy/ That one short minute gives me in her sight….love-devouring Death do what he dare/ It is enough that I may but call her mine.” (2.6.3-8)

The Friar has just expressed his fear that unfortunate events may occur after Romeo and Juliet’s marriage, but Romeo responds by saying that no amount of sorrow can dampen the happiness he feels with just one look at Juliet. Once he and Juliet are married and truly belonging to one another, he will have no fear whatsoever of Death. These lines are spoken like a young man who is passionately in love. There is no rationale in his thinking; he only feels that love and marriage make him invulnerable. Romeo and Juliet embody the “kids” that are mentioned in the quote on the Home page of this wiki. They are head over heels in love with no sense of responsibility or reasoning; they think that love is all that matters. These lines help enforce the theme that love is very powerful and potent. It rules out all common sense.
- Casey

After reading these first few scenes, I have noticed that Romeo often expresses his feelings of invulnerability through his love with Juliet. Earlier, on the balcony scene, he had said 20 swords wouldn't harm him if he had Juliet's love. And that he would rather die a painful death by swords than live without Juliet's love. So he is implying that their love is powerful and almost makes him invincible. So, here, in this scene he is saying, death doesn't matter to me, as long as I have her love. This brings me back to the bad feeling, the sort of premonition he had at the party. He completely forgot about this feeling. Even though there are now evident signs of foreshadowing to his death, because he is talking openly about death and how he doesn't care as long as he has Juliet, but what happens when he doesn't "have" her anymore? So soon, he will realize that without Juliet, death is actually inevitable.
-Regan

I agree with Regan’s post, Romeo expresses his feelings by saying he would rather die with 20 swords than have Juliet reject him. In this quote Romeo is saying he can find such happiness between him and Juliet and that just even a glaze at her makes him feel such joy. By saying “come what sorrow can” he is implying that even if sorrow comes, it would not affect them and their love would just triumph all the bad things and make it good. This proves how powerful their love is and he wouldn’t care if death comes and destroys everything, as long as he has Juliet.
-Iris


I agree with what Casey and Regan stated about how Romeo is passionately in love and expressing his feelings of invulnerability. I find it extremely ironic that Romeo constantly states himself to be seemingly invincible, such as saying 20 swords won’t harm him or ‘death do what he dare’ as long as he has Juliet’s love. However, in the end he commits suicide because of his love for Juliet. On the other hand, this statement could be interpreted as also showing his passionate love for Juliet, to an extent where he isn’t afraid of dying. Both his impulsiveness as well as his obsession for Juliet is clearly visible in this statement. If the quote were to be seen in this light, then the reader can see Romeo’s character building up to the point where he commits suicide for his love.
-Tracey

Romeo says that he will not be afraid after being married to Juliet. No matter how much sorrow he can (will) encounter, his joy of marrying Juliet will vanquish all sorrow and unfortunates that may happen. He will not fear death after marrying Juliet. Even if it's only one minute, their marriage and love will bring him enough power to triumph over death for Romeo will not be afraid anymore. -Angela

I think that having the prior knowledge of the ending in the prologue in Act 1 makes this quote work more for the story than if the ending wasn't already hinted at in the prologue. The audience already knows that the lovers will take their own lives at the end of the book, and here we have Romeo going on about how his love for Juliet makes him impervious to death. However, he was also right in a way, because he thought he no longer had Juliet while she was in a coma, and her love was gone, so he was "able" to kill himself
- Dawson

This is good example of dramatic irony because the audience knows what is going to happen because of the prologue but Romeo and Juliet don't know what is going to happen. Romeo is young and is not afraid about the future. I think he believes in living in the moment because he says that he doesn't care much about the future as he is with her now.
- Tina

Friar Lawrence expresses his worries about their marriage, however Romeo is very persistent about it. He says he does not care about the future as long as he and Juliet are married in the line “come what sorrow can,/ It cannot countervail the exchange of joy/ That one short minute gives me in her sight….love-devouring Death do what he dare/ It is enough that I may but call her mine.” (2.6.3-8). I agree with Tina about this line being dramatic irony. The audience already know about their tragic events yet to come, however when reading this line, it seems like Romeo is challenging it although he and his love for Juliet are far ready from it.
-Elizabeth

Romeo is just impressed about their marriage. He is certain that nothing will be matter because their love would be persistent and the sorrow would not do anything on their joy. I think Romeo fell in love deeply so that he doesn't worry about anything but only marriage and love.
-Jina
Juliet: “Conceit, more rich in matter than in worth,/ Brags of his substance, not of ornament./ They are but beggars that can count their worth,/ But my true love is grown to such excess/ I cannot sum up sum of half my wealth.” (2.6.30-34)

Juliet is illustrating the extent of her love for Romeo, just before they leave with the Friar to get married. She is saying that the understanding they share is meaningful and sincere; true love cannot be bought, and is therefore of unmeasurable worth. Their deep love for one another is not superficial. Others who can measure their love are like beggars that possess so little money that they can count it easily. However, Juliet's love for Romeo has grown to be so great that she cannot even measure half of it. Throughout Act 2, Juliet's language has made it increasingly evident that she is less sentimental and more realistic than Romeo. In these lines, Juliet compares love to money in a straightforward manner, demonstrating once again that she is the more practical of the two.
- Amy

Juliet uses a metaphor to compare her love for Romeo to wealth and riches. She says that if her true love for Romeo were money, she would not even be able to count half of it because there is too much of it. She is saying that her love is too deep and overabundant to be expressed or quantified. She has become so rich in love, that she cannot be compared to the beggars that can express all of their true love with words and quantify it.
- Junee

In this excerpt from the play, Juliet is describing how wealthy she is terms of her "true love." She has found so much love in Romeo that she "cannot sum up" her "wealth." This shows not only the "trueness" of their love but also compares it with other people who are able to quantify their love. I disagree with Erik because I believe William Shakespeare wrote this as just a metaphor. I also disagree with this statement : "The rich can love the poor, A Capulet can love a Montague." To me, this does not make sense because neither house were poor, "Two households, both alike in dignity" (Prologue.1). Also, since this metaphor shows that Juliet is unable to sum up her "wealth," it could mean that she is "rich" with it. Then if she is "rich" with true love, then is she in love with someone who is "poor" in love? I don't think so.
-Oliver

In response to Oliver's post, When Erik said that "The rich can love the poor, A Capulet can love a Montague." I think he means that two completely different types people can love each other, even though there is something standing in between their love, in this case their family issues. In this quote I don't think Juliet is trying to describe how wealthy she is, she is just comparing their love to money, she is trying to say that their love is far too great to be spoken, it can only be imagined. - Sherman.
Sherman, that's a great clarification and I totally agree - Ms K.

In the beginning of Act 2, Juliet felt that the love between herself and Romeo is too sudden "It is too rash, too unadvised, too sudden," (2.2.125), but why is it that she is willing to marry Romeo just after one day she says this? - Sherman
Because her practicality has lost out to the power of physical passion/ infatuation! Or - perhaps because it's fated and Cupid's bow has struck home? It depends on your reading of the role of fate in the play! Good Question! Ms K.

Like Ms. Kemsley stated, I believe that Juliet does know that her love toward Romeo is rash and sudden but feels that she is overcome by this love. I think Juliet is trying to be reasonable even though she is still childish in feeling the need to marry Romeo as fast as possible. This might suggest Juliet is following her immature side which thinks Romeo is her true love rather than her rational side which knows the relationship is too unstable.
-Allyn

Amy: How is Peter's presence significant to 2.4 and to the overall progression of the play?

Juliet says if the love she shares with Romeo were her wealth, she could not count even half of it because it is so great. We found from previous acts and scenes that in her nature she is practical and sincere. How can someone like this, be so blind at love? There is nothing wrong with Romeo, and he did not do anything that betrayed her, but for someone to go behind the family’s back at such a young age and marry the son of the rival family comes from a big motivation. Does she not realize that she has only known him for a VERY short amount of time? perhaps not even a full 24 hours. Maybe the word blind doesn’t fit the situation, but what encourages Juliet to be so impulsive considering her usual responsible nature?
-Elizabeth

Amy, you'll see when we watch act 2 that Peter's role is mostly comic. His interaction with the Nurse provides lightness to her interaction with Mercutio in this scene. Nothing especially deep and meaningful, I'm afraid! Ms Kemsley
I agree with Amy but I also think that he is also saying that anyone can fall in love. The rich can love the poor, A Capulet can love a Montague. He is trying to convey to Juliet that even though their families are enemies, it shouldn't stop them from being in love with each other. He uses the contrast of rich and poor, which shows he can't buy love but this also shows the relationship of the two opposing families.-Erik

Fantastic responses so far everybody! Well done. I'll check in again tomorrow to answer questions. Enjoy the sunshine now! Ms Kemsley

Why was Mercutio acting rash and irritable towards the Nurse when she entered in the middle of 2.4? Did Mercutio act this way because the Nurse was a Capulet or more to contribute to the play's humorous side?
-Allyn